College and Marriage
If you want to get married one day, it may be wise to think long and hard before you decide to take out loans to get a college degree. This article discusses the crushing burden that some people undertake in order to finance their education. This burden often makes the years of study, the foregone wages, and the obscene cots of college a bad bargain.
It can also prevent somebody from achieving lifelong married love. As the article says:
It is utterly depressing that there are so many people like her facing decades of payments, limited capacity to buy a home and a debt burden that can repel potential life partners. For starters, it’s a shared failure of parenting and loan underwriting.
For those people considering a college education, please take the time to crunch the numbers to make sure that decision is economically worthwhile. To do otherwise can ruin your life.
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Watch out… the fanatics on dailykos are likely to think you are telling young women to forgo college and become live-in servants to their husbands.
Here’s a better idea: if you want to get married one day, find a partner who appreciates the value of a college education and an educated woman!! However, I DO agree that student loan lenders are usurious thieves.
Heidi,
If a woman goes to college and receives a piece of paper at the end stating that she’s educated, it doesn’t make it so. Education is much more than getting a degree from a facility that gets paid do distribute them.
Education is available to anybody who wants it. You can sit in a library and get an education for free. You can order courses from the teaching company and get an education that way. You can do any of a number of things.
I have learned more since college than I ever learned in college. All it takes is interest, curiosity and commitment to learn.
College has nothing to do with it.
That said, my wife’s a doctor.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you a person may obtain an education without going to college. On the other hand, considering the failures of public education in this country, many people don’t learn the skill of critical thinking until they have obtained a college education. So while “being educated” is not dependent on a college degree, for most people, it’s the tool that gets them there. It lays the foundation for lifelong learning. As my law professor used to say, “be your OWN law professor.”
oops, forgot the word “that” in the first sentence…should read: I don’t necessarily disagre with you THAT…”
For most jobs, regardless of if you hardly learn anything in college, you need that degree. That degree tells employers that your at least dedicated enough to earn it, that degree earns you more money then a non-degreed worker, and opens up more doors and connections then most people without a degree have. I think our nation has a bit of an issue with accepting NOT going to college as a valid choice, which is in part for why there are so many students with high loan burden. (I am one of those students, but I do not regret my education) I do also find that quote from the article to be………misleading? stupid? Reasonable people tend to flee from people with “bad debt”. In this economy, everyone whose recently graduated is feeling the crunch, along with those who graduated long ago. But student loan debt, if you’re either making payments or because of the crappy job market, are deferring, is understandable. Now credit card debt, THATS a deal breaker.
Nerdygirl,
You stated that employers value a college degree. They do. But they shouldn’t. But they have to.
Let me explain. You correctly ascertained that a college degree tells an employer that a candidate has at least an average IQ and has the gumption to sit for four years and study a little.
They shouldn’t because 1) College is expensive, both in terms of cost and in terms of opportunity cost. 2) Too many people go to college, making the degree worth less and vastly expanding the waste. 3) A college degree in most areas of study doesn’t tell the employer what the job candidate knows. 4) There are more reliable ways of evaluating knowledge than a paper from a paper granting institution (Certification tests. There is no reason why we cannot have certification exams in all areas of study). They’re faster, cheaper and more accurate than college degrees.
They have to: You see, Nerdygirl, here’s where do-gooders ruin people’s lives. In the 1970s morons on the Supreme Court decided (in Griggs v. Duke Power and Light) that IQ tests were an unfair way to choose amongst job candidates. Now, instead of wasting an afternoon on an IQ test (which has some relevance to whether you make a good electrician) candidates have to waste four years and thousands of dollars. What a waste of life! And all because some morons on the Supreme Court wanted to feel good about themselves.
See Charles Murray’s excellent book “Real Education” if you really want to learn something about this topic.
Nerdygirl,
Evidently, you don’t know much about bankruptcy law. You can easily discharge credit card debt in bankruptcy. I would be surprised if I hadn’t discharged a total of more than a million dollars in credit card debt for clients in my career. I never discharged a penny of student loan debt. Student loan debt is MUCH worse than credit card debt.
Let me put it this way. If I know a person with massive credit card debt, chances are they got this by being irresponsible. If I know someone with student loan debt, chances are they got this by going to school, which would be an investment in their future. Also likely that the debt is in their name, and they, not their parents footed the bill for this. Which suggests drive or some form of responsibility. And while all thats fantastic concerning certification tests (which many industries already require) I already stated I thought our society put too much emphasis on going to college as the only valid choice. Opportunity cost, well that depends on the type of career you want. However, most people leave home and geographical location for the first time then, and the resulting experience changes (and hopefully matures) people. Perhaps the best thing about college is it knocks perspective into you. You might have been the top of your class in high school, but now your in with other people who were at the top of their class and your no longer number one. It’s an added dose of reality for the insulated lives most teenagers live in.
As for the IQ test, well, sometimes really smart people have no work ethic because everything comes so easy for them. Sometimes not-so smart people have excellent work ethics because they know they have to work for it. IQ does not a qualification make. More importantly, I don’t think that the idea of crunching numbers for whether college works for an individual is a bad thing, I just think that attributing student loan debt to a supposed repulsion of possible life partners silly, and on this kinda blog, seems alarmist.
Nerdygirl,
You seem to have a romanticized view of college. If somebody is so stupid as to go into debt to get a degree in art history, womyn’s studies, english, etc. they are every bit as irresponsible, as the most massive credit card junkie.
Actually, no. They’re more irresponsible. Credit card contracts are pretty arcane. The provision provisions are made so that you don’t realize how the debt will pile up. The companies have cunningly used psychology and law to make sure that your debt can pile up quickly and without your realizing how it happens. Sure it’s irresponsible to let it pile up. But, it’s not the most irresponsible thing you can do.
To undertake a four year mission without regard to how that undertaking will affect your entire future is much more irresponsible.
College matures nobody. It’s like kindergarten. It’s four years of summer camp with a few easy tests. I went there. I know. Sure, there are people who major in mathematics and engineering and they have to work hard, but everybody else can skate by just fine with little effort. It’s four years of putting off the real world. You can’t fool me. Frankly, I think people become less mature at college than they would if they worked.
As for IQ tests, the relationship between IQ and job performance is demonstrable in some industries. They should be able to use that instead of requiring an applicant’s massive investments of time and money to get the same results. Work ethic has little to do with it (you can fire the lazy, after all).
Oh, and Nerdygirl, if you would marry somebody with a hundred grand in (non-dischargable) college debt then I wish you well. But my crystal ball says that there could be dark clouds on the horizon.
Yeah, i went to college too Arlemagne. But I actually watched many people mature as opposed to looking around with a superiority complex. It also kinda goes against I agree that society pushes college on too many people, because it’s not a good choice for some, I disagree with using a crystal ball and possible romantic relationships in the future as a reason to not go to college. As far as the majors you listed, it depends on where the person wants to end up. An art history undergrad it’s self my be worthless, but continuing on in schooling can lead to a promising career in academia. I’m pretty sure the women’s spelled womyn’s died amongst people with any credibility. English can lead either to public education or the lucky and dedicated could end up actually writing for a living. Obviously these are not careers you value, but many people in them find them highly rewarding. We can’t have a society composed entirely of engineers and mathematicians, because while they are a great asset and value, variety and different mindsets are what make a society grow. Because life would be boring if everyone thought the same way about the same thing.
Nerdygirl,
You didn’t have to tell me you went to college. It was so obvious that I would have been willing to eat my hat on the news you hadn’t been to college.
About the majors I mentioned, forget all about “rewarding career” this and all that. The thing that matters for people with common sense is this: 1) What is the expected earnings in the career I propose to get with the degree. 2) What is the probability of getting that career and sustaining it for the long haul. 3) How much would it cost to get it.
After figuring out the above numbers, you have to do a bit of math to figure out if college is a sound investment.
Also, I’m not sure I would recommend a career in academia to anybody. Given the extent of the higher ed bubble, those jobs may become still harder to get in future.
It may not sound nice, but this is reality. To ignore it is much more irresponsible than to rack up credit card debt.
Funnily enough, what you mention is of important to people with common sense, none if it is related to potential life partners being turned off by debt. Perhaps that’s because at the stage of life people decide whether or not to go to college, potential life partners is less important then finding a career.
Careers are great, but a person has to be able to derive some enjoyment from their work, otherwise it sets themselves up for burnout.
Interesting…what I’m seeing lately…are kids who could easily have been admitted to top tier schools, knocking out their pre-reqs at the local community colleges while living at home and working part-time. They are then entering both the good state colleges AND being accepted as juniors into the the pricier universities.
Ahunt,
That’s EXACTLY how I got my college education.
Snerk…Arlemagne,
My galpals are lovingly ambivalent, but their hubbys seem to semi-like the arrangement. And not merely because of the lesser strains on the pocketbook.
We recently chick-schmoozed about the bennies of such an arrangement, and of course what came up was the maternal expectations from kids claiming adult status.
Another thought: how about changing predatory lending practices of student lenders or heaven forbid the cost of college itself instead of discouraging higher education? In my opinion, the more education a person receives, the better. I may have student loan debt, but my quality of life is a whole lot better than it would have been otherwise! My child understands the value of education because she saw how hard I worked to get mine. Given the anti-intellectualism of the religious right these days, the last message I want sent to young adults is that education is not worth the money that is spent on it! Scary when people value a lack of intelligence and sound bites over critical thought. See Sarah Palin.
Heidi,
I bet this thought never occurred to you: How about having the government stop subsidizing universities and subsidizing school loans? If you ever bothered to learn any economics, you would realize that these governmental practices wind up raising the cost of college tuition.
Your statement that the more education a person received the better is completely ignorant of economics. You, apparently, have not yet heard of the law of diminishing returns. After a certain point, investment of time and money in education stops yielding the same marginal results and the benefit of further education diminishes. Eventually, the benefit of further education approaches zero. After all, by the logic of your statement, the ideal citizen would be one who finishes his forty sixth advanced degree at the age of ninety four. This lack of logic is why this and our previous discussion have begun to utterly bore me. It gets very tiresome explaining the basics to those who have willingly blinded themselves.
Now, I’m a full fledged member of the religious right. In the past two years, I have taught myself two languages. Considering the fact that I have chosen a non-traditional gender role for myself, I have lots of time to study. I use it well. I would eat my hat if you could demonstrate that you knew more about science, history, economics, psychology, or mathematics than I do.
You know, if I stereotyped gays and lesbians in quite the same way you stereotype members of the religious right, you would call me a bigot. I’m not going to condemn you as a bigot. You probably just don’t know any righties. I would also eat my hat if you could demonstrate that you have as many right wing friends as I have gay or lesbian friends.
Arlemagne, there is more than mere monetary value to education, but I suppose that doesn’t occur to someone who only looks at it from an economic standpoint. I would much prefer an educated but broke partner than a wealthy but uneducated one. But I guess it’s simply about what a person values, and money just is not the most important thing to me. I happen to be someone who values education for its own sake, not just for the money that it may bring. And let’s be realistic here. Regardless of its cost, a college education will do more for a person in this day and age to bring long-term economic security than any other path. Especially if that person is female.
I don’t need you to explain anything to me. Your myopic viewpoints are plain as day. I actually happen to know quite a few “righties,” having been raised by them. My parents were evangelical/fundamentalists and once upon a time, I shared many of the same views as those of you on the religious right. Considering that I used to be one of your kind, I feel particularly entitled to criticize your ideology, seeing as how I both understand it and have evolved beyond it.
My best childhood friend is a homeschooling evangelical preacher’s wife, so please don’t make assumptions about who I do and do not know and include as friends in my life. But just because I can love and respect a person for who he or she is doesn’t mean that I have to subscribe to a religious-conservative ideology that ignores reality and is detrimental to the good of the individual and of the community. Plus, although I am loathe to call myself a Christian these days given the hatred, judgment and hypocrisy that spews forth from many who identify as such, I do consider myself a person of faith and a Christ-follower. Like Christ, I don’t particularly care for Pharisees. The leaders of the religious right and many of its members are nothing more than holier-than-thou fools who have missed the forest for the trees when it comes to matters of faith and how we as human beings should treat one another. Given your ad hominem attacks, it appears that you have not fallen far from the tree.
Unlike you, I have nothing to prove with respect to how much I know about various subjects. I happen to be a bit of a science and math geek myself (I was once the only girl on my high school math team) on, and enjoy a healthy interest in psychology, philosophy, history, and a multitude of other subjects. But knowledge is nothing without wisdom and without compassion. Those are two traits that are sorely lacking in many who consider themselves part of the religious right.
Heidi (by the way, no need to call me Arlemagne. Ari, my real name is just fine),
Your powers of deduction really aren’t blowing my skirt up here. I told you that I have done a great deal of study in the past two years while dedicating myself to raising my children.
Now, how, exactly, do you deduce that I think that the only value of education is the money to be earned from wielding it? How much money do you think I earned from my brand new knowledge of Hebrew or Aramaic?
Of course, if you’re going to invest MONEY in an education, than you’d darn well better wind up with some monetary benefit at the end of it. To neglect that would be pure insanity.
Your view of the financial benefits of a college education is severely misguided. Please google “Higher Education Bubble” for enlightenment.
Okay, so you know some right wingers. You used to be a right winger, and now you’re a convert to leftism. Bully for you. Considering that, I would expect your views of right wingers to be exactly as fair as the views of this guy has about Jews (he’s a convert from Judaism to militant Islam). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DabIO_gwRgo
If there was anything you could possibly have said about your background that would give your assertions about right wingers LESS credibility, it has not occurred to me. Perhaps you ought to take a look at Eric Hoffer’s book “The True Believer.” The more you write, the more it seems that that particular shoe fits.
Incidentally, I did not mention my areas of knowledge to brag. I mentioned them to address your stereotype of religious right wingers as anti-intellectual.
I am not a “convert to leftism.” There are quite a few leftist positions with which I disagree actually, but since you yourself have already stereotyped me, I suppose it’s too much to ask that you consider that a person may hold a range of political/moral/ethical beliefs, depending on the issue at hand. My view of right-wingers is not unfair. I call it as I see it, as I have known it, and as many, many people who speak on behalf of the religious right reveal themselves to be. Your so-called “higher education bubble” is just another symptom of the failure of unlimited capitalism coupled with a culture of consumerism to benefit hard-working families. Just a mere fifty years ago in this country and thanks in large part to the unions, a family could get by on one adult’s income. No more.
What I don’t understand is how you can talk out of different sides of your mouth about education. On the one hand, you clearly value at least a self-directed and individualized form of it. On the other hand, you suggest that people should forgo a college education instead of investing in acquiring one because the economic return on that investment is not sufficient enough to make it worth one’s while. It seems that your issue is not with higher education per se, but instead with the costs of obtaining that education. Never once do you question the for-profit structure of higher education. I remember a French exchange student at my law school who was completely appalled at how our society places the financial burden of educating its citizens on the citizens themselves. The more we devalue the acquisition of an education in this country, the faster the rest of the world will pass us by.
Heidi,
You’re not a “convert to leftism”? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA! (I knew you were going to write that. I had my response prepared). Anyway, let me count the ways.
But before I do so, let me mention that your quibble that you disagree with some leftist positions (without, I may add, giving a single example…) does not persuade me at all. There are many flavors of Leftism. I’m sure you would fit quite comfortably into one or other category. A look at Wikipedia’s page on Left Wing Politics will probably yield a variety of leftism that you’re comfortable with. From there, it’s just minor quibbles. My case, I believe still stands firm.
So, why do I say you’re a convert to leftism?
1) You, an ardent opponent of the traditional family, come here to a pro-family blog and preach to us heathens.
2) In your preaching, you spout leftist pieties (pun intended) left and right. Your assertion that the “profit motive” is behind the high cost of college while ignoring the influence of government distortion of the market is a good example. Your understanding of economics does not seem strong enough to justify your assertion. So you take your belief on faith. The fact is that we can clearly and convincingly demonstrate the role of government in inflating college prices, so your belief is quite contrary to the facts. Other examples include your faith that most or much of human personality is determined by culture. That assertion is becoming more demonstrably false by the day.
3) These and other of your assertions you have made here on this blog (examples provided upon request) are just as much confessions of faith as the Ani Ma’amin, the Nicean Creed, or the Shahada. (I wonder how many of those three you can define without resort to Wikipedia?)
4) Your views of right wingers is exactly as you see it. I’m sure of that. But you are probably unaware of a psychological phenomenon called “confirmation bias.” I’m sure you notice every little transgression you possibly can that is committed by a religious right winger. You also probably ignore lots of acts of kindness done by religious right wingers that you ignore because it does not fit your theory that right wingers are EEEEEEEEVIL. You cannot deny this. It’s a fact of human psychology.
Lastly, I’m not talking out of both sides of my mouth about education. Education is valuable. Some kinds of it, and only sometimes. You need to use WISDOM and JUDGMENT to determine its value to any individual. (To determine its financial value, you also have to use CALCULATION). I don’t see how this is not blindingly obvious. Do you understand yet, or should I explain more simply?
Best to you and yours (I mean than, by the way),
Ari
Wow, you are so incredibly rude and misguided. I’m finished wasting my time trying to get you to understand that human beings do not and should not fit into neat little idealistic boxes that prevent them from being fully human and that are based on sexist and outdated stereotypes. Whatever. You believe what you believe and will read everything I write through that filter. Yet again, a right-winger with a closed mind. Surprise, surprise. Suffice it to say that I am well aware of something called “confirmation bias” because I see it with every post on this website and many of the comments thereto. Additionally, it’s funny how you folks are always the ones complaining about the “liberal elite,” when you are the one consistently practicing a form of intellectual snobbery and assuming that I just don’t know all of the things that you do. Guess what? I do. And I don’t need to “resort to Wikipedia.” Man, your pretentiousness is so pathetic. I did not come here to preach to the heathens. I came here to offer different perspectives based not on stereotypes, but on the lives of real human beings. But I know, my real-life perspective is not valued because it flies in the face of everything that you are trying to teach others about the scary, scary world that exists when not every man and every woman wants to squeeze themselves into your limited ideology.
The one point I will make is that I am not “an ardent opponent of the traditional family.” Instead, and unlike you and your kind, I am open to, and supportive of, the idea that not all families should or must fit into one mold to be healthy and happy families. If gender stereotypes and their accompanying roles work for the parties involved, all the more power to them! But for the rest of us who have moved beyond Ozzie and Harriet, we’ll go on living according to that which is right for our own families, and watch as you and your kind move further toward the fringes of society and closer to extinction.
As for my use of colorful language in my arguments against you, I just have to mention that your arguments were also not exactly “well played, sir, but consider this” type of arguments. You have been a bit of a bull in a China shop here. You have called people or their arguments stupid, misguided, ridiculous, you’ve accused me of “talking out of both sides of my mouth.” Were you to have conducted this discussion in a “well played sir, but consider this” type of way, I would have matched courtesy for courtesy. It’s not my fault that I’m more creative in my use of language.
I do not think that people should fit into “neat little idealistic boxes.” That said, I think that human nature is limited. I also think that the capacity of human beings to establish systems that work and are sustainable for the long term is limited. We cannot just imagine how we would like society to be and then make it so. No matter what the inevitable will happen and, to quote Barbara Tuchman, “G-d will teach the Law to kings.” i.e. we must deal with imperfect and fallible human nature as it is, not as we wish it to be. Capitalism and patriarchy are far from perfect. But they got people to produce goods and services for others’ use, and they got people to reproduce in sufficient numbers to keep the system going. I’m not sure our departures from those imperfect systems will yield a better society for the long term.
As far as me and my kind moving towards extinction, I can hardly see how that will be the case. We will outbreed you. We will teach our children our eternal values. And when the Higher Education Bubble bursts, your capacity to influence our children will be much diminished.