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Even Bad Arguments Must be Refuted

May 13th, 2010

I know it is tedious to refute nonsensical, illogical, factually incorrect or otherwise bad arguments. But it must be done. Yesterday’s nonsense has a way of becoming today’s conventional wisdom. And our friends at the Daily Kos made a very bad argument indeed in the course of their smear job against the Ruth Institute the other day.

The Gay Establishment has been circulating a version of the argument Dante made at the Kos:

“In (both Prop 8 in CA and Issue 1 in ME) the campaign tactics used were despicable: both campaigns sought to convince the electorate that legalizing same-sex marriage would lead to second-graders being recruited into a lifestyle of sodomy and depravity.”

Poor Dante: once again, he has no empathy for other people’s concerns. The real issue in those ads about 2nd graders was not that gay men were going to jump out and grab children. There was not a hint of any such thing in any of the ads in CA. The issue was parental rights: parents did not like the idea of their children being taught about same sex marriage in grade school. Parents want to share that kind of information with their children, in accordance with their own values, and their judgment about their child’s maturity level.

The issue was parental rights. In this video, it is quite clear that these parents believe that they should have the rights to decide when and how to explain homosexuality to their children. They are quite clear that they are worried, not about “recruiting children,” but about indoctrinating and propagandizing children, at all grade levels. In the Prop 8 campaign in CA we had signs that said “Prop 8 = Parental Rights.” Evidently, the Gay Lobby and its allies are unsympathetic with the desire of parents to direct the education of their own children.

But, the argument continues, “What is so wrong with children being taught that same sex couples exist? They do exist. They are out there in the public, living a perfectly legal and acceptable lifestyle. Why shouldn’t kids learn about them?”

This response is actually worse than the original argument, as it demonstrates how tone-deaf the Gay Lobby and their allies really are. Americans are for the most part, willing to live and let live about same sex couples living together. If their kids ask them about Dan and Dave who live next door, or Cousin Ellen and her friend Susie, most people are perfectly capable of formulating an answer that is a) respectful of Dan and Dave, or Ellen and Susie, and b) includes as much (or as little) information about the likely sexual activities of Dan and Dave, or Ellen and Susie, as is consistent with the maturity level of the child, the closeness of the family with Dave and Dan.

What else exactly is it that the Gay Lobby thinks is so important to accomplish in elementary school?

The voters were left to answer that question for themselves, and they didn’t like what comes to mind. With state courts ruling in favor of the schools, and against the parents, with the CA education establishment actively campaigning against Prop 8, the voters concluded that parents were likely to lose in any showdown between parental discretion and school establishment power. But in the Gay Left Lexicon, none of these concerns are even worth mentioning. The only possible explanation worth discussing is that NOM must have been appealing to dark and sinister motives.

As I said, even a bad argument must be refuted, or it will take on a life of its own. I heard a version of this argument in a debate in San Francisco, and I could hardly believe what I was hearing. More significantly, the Gay Legal Establishment used a variation of this argument in the Prop 8 court case, Perry v Schwarzenegger. The stakes are much higher there than in my little debate. If Judge Walker, himself no parent, can’t find any empathy with the concerns of parents, and swallows the Gay Lobby’s bait on the hidden meaning of these very tame ads, he will overturn Prop 8. That in turn, would mean that the federal constitution forbids the dual gender requirement for marriage. Same sex marriage would be established nationwide, regardless of the wishes of voters.

Look at the Prop 8 ads here and here and see for yourself whether you think they are about parental rights to direct their children’s education, or whether they are some kind of hidden gay-bashing. Draw your own conclusions about who is distorting what.

And don’t be afraid to stick up for what you believe.

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  1. Kim
    May 16th, 2010 at 11:00 | #1

    I find the feeling of this article rather backwards. I am a heterosexual parent of three children, but know several homosexual couples with children; I am wondering if the author actually even knows homosexual parents with children and realizes how loving and what good parents they are. As far as parental rights as far as teaching children who raises whom in what type of family, the author again seems to be blind to the fact that the children in these classrooms whom she only wants to teach man-woman parental unit stories to may indeed have gay parents, or one parent, or perhaps a grandparent raising them. I think it is important to teach to our children what is happening in today’s society. Inclusion, not exclusion will help our children become happy and healthy adults.

  2. Sheila
    May 16th, 2010 at 11:38 | #2

    Wow. Ten postings refuting Dante Atkins’ one diary on DKos.

    Looks like he touched a nerve, huh, Jennifer? (Can I call you “Jennifer”? I mean, seeing how condescendingly you addressed Mr. Atkins by his first name, and all….)

    We’re playing “antifeminist/fundie bingo” over at DKos. Keep it coming!

  3. May 16th, 2010 at 23:29 | #3

    “The issue was parental rights”

    Prop 8 supporters are just so misunderstood! Poor people…all they wanted was their rights! You see, Prop 8 was really about “parental rights,” kinda like how the segregationist movement was really about “states’ rights.”

    As Dr. Morse says, them homosexurals are “unsympathetic with the desire of parents to direct the education of their own children.” Right now, the gays are preventing you from taking your precious children out of school and homeskooling them. In the name of God, whom we all revere, in the name of liberty we hold so dear, in the name of decency, which we all cherish, what is happening in America?

  4. Karen Grube
    May 18th, 2010 at 23:01 | #4

    Excuse me, Carl, but that’s a complete, sarcastic crock! There is absolutely NO similarity between the very real desire of Black Americans to secure for themselves the right to vote and for true Civil Rights and this attempt to push the acceptance of the gay lifestyle on all of us. I’m sorry, but I have never in my entire life seen a drinking fountan labeled ‘for gays only’ or a bathroom. I have never heard of gays being told literally to go to the back of the bus, and I have absolutely never heard of gays being beaten or being blasted for water from fire hoses just for standing in line to register to vote. Oh, and I have never heard of groups of gays being taken from their home countries and sold into slavery. What happend to Blacks in this country was shameful and sickening. I’m sorry, but it is completely reprehensible to compare this pitiful attempt to push the entire gay agenda on all of us to the struggle of Black Americans for real civil rights, like the right to vote, the right to live where you want, eat where you want, worship where you want and all of that. On the contrary, I see our state and federal governments doing everything they can to support pushing this agenda on our kids in our schools, into our laws through the courts, into our military, and in the media. And if you don’t think the intent of all of this isn’t to remove any and every reference to faith or our religious heritage from our lives and especially from our schools, and to silence anyone who disagrees with this lifestyle, then I’ve got some beachfront property in Arizona I’d like to sell you.

  5. Rhiannon Nicolson
    May 19th, 2010 at 13:30 | #5

    As a European, I am not 100 % up to date on the current stage of prop 8. However, what I find truly concerning about education in America on a whole is the complete and utter denial of human sexuality and sexual relationshipa, as if somehow discussing it in a school context is depraved and wrong, and not the role of a teacher. Whilst some people are of the opinion that sex education is an issue that should be dealt with at home, I question whether parents are really addressing the issue correctly, and whether, as Ruth claims, satisfactory explanations will be given about why Ellen and her friend Susie spend so much time together.

  6. kimtoo
    May 20th, 2010 at 10:13 | #6


    Kim, they don’t care about the facts, they don’t care if they harm kids with gay parents, they only care about their rights. No one elses.

    This site is insulting to America, women, LGBT people, children and men. And they do not even know it.

  7. May 21st, 2010 at 14:07 | #7

    @Karen Grube

    >Excuse me, Carl, but that’s a complete, sarcastic crock!

    Oh noes…! Karen, with the sweet lord jesus as my witness, I do humbly apologize for any perceived sarcasm, and attest that none was intended.

    You and I actually have a lot of thinking in common. You make the very important point that today’s homosexurals don’t experience the same forms of discrimination that negroes did in the last century and before. And I couldn’t agree more. I too have never seen gays get sent to the back of a bus, or washed down with fire hoses, or kept as slaves. I have never seen a ‘gays only’ drinking fountain. (I didn’t even know they drank water. Have you ever seen a homo drink a glass of water?)

    Indeed, what happened to them negroes was shameful and sickening. A negro couldn’t even marry a regular white person in Virginia until 1967! On the other hand, Lord knows what all them homosexurals are getting so uppity about today.

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